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Talk:House Martell
GRRM on fewer Martells in the TV version So Spake Martin - According to an interview with io9.com, Martin acknowledged that they may have to condense some of the Martells but he honestly doesn't know at this point. :Question: Will there be fewer Martells on the TV show? - "It's possible. They haven't gotten to that. I know they're, we're bringing Oberyn this year, there's been that huge Internet controversy about that. So that we will definitely have the Red Viper and his brother Doran at some point. And I think we will have Areo and the Sand Snakes. I don't know."http://observationdeck.io9.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845 So sayeth the shepherd, so sayeth the flock. I honestly thought it wouldn't be a problem to condense some of the Sand Snakes - there are eight of them, albeit the youngest four aren't really characters at this point they're just little girls. As for the oldest four, there are Obara (out of Oldtown whore) the big tough one, Nymeria (out of Volantene noblewoman) the beautiful one with the blades, Tyene (out of a septa) blonde-haired blue-eyed master of poisons, and Sarella (out of a Summer Islands trader) the dark trickster/infiltrator. (sigh) I wish we could have all four. But of the main ones we've got Arianne, Quentyn, and Trystane. All three do important things in the story so I'm not sure how they could possibly condense all of them.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 05:22, July 25, 2013 (UTC) Ah, speak of the devil. Today they cast Ellaria Sand. So they've cast all of the adult members from the books. The question is about Doran's children and the Sand Snakes. They need at least one son to be betrothed to Myrcella (though they didn't mention Trystane by name at the time), and it would be madness to remove Arianne....when I see crazy fan speculations in the comments section on WinterIsComing.net which baselessly proclaim "Maybe they'll combine Ellaria and Arianne" I can say without hyperbole that if I was physically present in the room with the person who made that comment, I would slap them across the face. Not for suggesting the possibility, mind you, but those who feel assured that this is what is going to happen, when it's a very out-there theory to begin with. I fear for Quentyn however, even though he does a lot in later books. Meanwhile, I'm fairly confident that at least some of the Sand Snakes might get condensed, but even Martin doesn't know at this point: the younger Martells don't get introduced until book 4, which will correspond to Season 5, so we might go through all of Season 4 with no new information. We must pay close attention to names they mention, i.e. if at least some of the younger Sand Snakes accompany Ellaria. Also, good to see that they cast an Indian actress in the role, to stress that the Rhoynar are different - not everyone in Westeros is a blonde-haired blue-eyed Aryan ideal Andal like the Lannisters.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:31, July 25, 2013 (UTC) Sigil "The Martells of old used a spear as their emblem, while Nymeria and the Rhoynar used the sun as theirs." Wait...why would the Rhoynar use a sun? If anything, the First Men/Andals of Dorne before the Rhoynar arrived would use a sun to represent the hot deserts of Dorne, not the other way around.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:53, July 26, 2013 (UTC) Update Hello. Wondering about updating the Template for the family tree. Wondering if it would be better to show that Ellaria Sand isn't the exclusive mother of all the Sand Snakes? --Ardilaun (talk) 23:34, June 2, 2014 (UTC) :Not yet. We're not sure how the TV continuity might change around the Martell relationships. We're only going from early, leaked casting reports at this point. I have decided to hold off on updating the Martell family tree until we get more information as Season 5 approaches.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 15:05, June 25, 2014 (UTC) ::With all the press releases and interviews from David Benioff, D.B. Weiss and others during San Diego ComicCon confirming that the Sand Snakes have different mothers, might be worth updating. I think the templates ought be consistent with the information shown in this Wiki's articles and currently those articles show which ones are the daughters of Ellaria Sand and which ones are not so the template ought to concur with that? Also a minor edit would be to which switch Mormont to Martell in the category section. Ardilaun (talk) 14:39, September 2, 2014 (UTC) :::I sympathize with your concern, but the SDCC announcements only raised more questions. Even Westeros.org itself, in their video discussion of the casting, pointed out that the casting descriptions appear to be misworded, and there is now heavy debate about how the Martells are being condensed in the TV continuity. In particular...does Arianne Martell still exist? Because now Trystane is described as the "son and heir" of Doran....even though, back in Season 2, Tyrion explicitly said that Myrcella was being betrothed to Doran's "youngest" son, implying that he isn't even the heir. The Tyene casting is also bizarre: Tyene is the one Caucasian-looking Sand Snake, and they cast an Italian actress accordingly...then said she's the eldest daughter of Ellaria? That makes no sense! Tyene's entire point, the entire reason for the character's existence, is that she's a bastard from another woman and the only white one. Or, if you were going to make her Oberyn and Ellaria's child, cast a non-white actor! Why would she look nothing like either of her parents? (no, Italian people don't look Hispanic/Indian/Arabic - this isn't some 1970's Indian crying about pollution gimmick). So maybe that was misworded too, we don't know. :::The point is that the SDCC casting announcement raised as many questions as it did answers, so I feel we must once again adopt a "wait and see" attitude until the TV show provides us with a clear family tree.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:25, September 2, 2014 (UTC) ::::I don't there is any issue switching Mormont to Martell ::::I think we don't know the entire ethnic heritage of every actor cast and there are some assumption being made based on surnames, but that is neither here nor there. ::::Whether a Sand Snake's mother is from Volantis or Yi Ti or wherever is a question that's separate from whether she is Ellaria Sand's daughter. Somebody who edits Westeros.org's ASOIAF must have read this Talk Page seen they're now using the one I suggested. I think it just having Various woman and Ellaria Sand both link down to Sand Snakes doesn't conflict with any of the questions book fans seem to have.Ardilaun (talk) 15:49, September 6, 2014 (UTC) :::...where does it say "Mormont"? :::If the TV series later officially says "Tyene is Ellaria's daughter", we go with that as a TV change, that's not what I'm talking about. "Officially" is TV dialogue or their official family tree on the HBO Viewer's Guide. The issue is that there were enough oddities in the casting descriptions put out at SDCC that many (specifically Westeros.org) have questioned if it contained some mistakes (to the point that Elyo actually contacted HBO about it, yet their only reply was "No comment"). So with conflicting reports and considering the SDCC press release to be unreliable, we should wait for further information (I won't leave this until premiere night, I think they'll clarify this months beforehand when trailers for Season 5 start popping up).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:20, September 6, 2014 (UTC) Where does it say "Mormont"?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:07, September 15, 2014 (UTC) Ellaria's Daughters I've already spoke to TDD about this on my talk page and he said to bring it here. I was under the impression that Ellaria was the mother of the four youngest bastard daughters of Oberyn: Elia, Obella, Dorea, and Loreza. She was listed before as being the mother of the four youngest, but now it says she has five daughters in her infobox and that Tyene, the third oldest of the sand snakes, have been changed to be her daughter. In Tyene's bio it says she's the eldest of Ellaria's daughters but on Elia Sand's bio it says she's the oldest of the four born to Ellaria. Which version is correct? Did something recently change? - Son Of Fire (talk) 09:20, September 18, 2014 (UTC) : The official casting announcement from SDCC describes Tyene as Ellaria's daughter. However, it also contains several discrepancies, such as referring to Trystane as Doran's heir, when he's already been established as the youngest child. It remains an official source... but should be taken with a pinch of salt.--Ser Patrek, the Wolfskinner 10:28, September 18, 2014 (UTC) ::Righto - I'll leave as is until they clear up some of these issues, thanks. - Son Of Fire (talk) 11:19, September 18, 2014 (UTC) Sand Snakes —it's all clear now. Time to update The actresses for Tyene and Nym have done a pretty extensive interview in which they reveal the different back stories and personalities of each of their characters. Some of it fits the books (their personalities, Tyene will use poison despite rumors), some doesn't (the specifics of their back stories), but there you have it. Again, as she did in a recent Spanish interview, Sellers confirms she's Ellaria's daughter in the show. Some interesting quotes: : "Tyene is one of the Sand Snakes, one of Oberyn Martell’s three daughters that you get to meet in Season Five. I’m the youngest, the daughter of Ellaria Sand Varma who is one of Oberyn’s companions, but basically his wife. ... One of her weapons is double daggers and her other weapon is poison. That’s not always approved of by the other Snakes — poisoning someone is deemed to be a little underhand. But I also have double daggers and I’m pretty good at using them." : "I play Nymeria Sand also known as Lady Nym, Oberyn’s second daughter but not by Ellaria. My mother, who died in battle, was an Eastern noblewoman and she is actually the person who taught me my weapon — the bullwhip. I live in Dorne. Nymeria is the most strategic of the three sisters third being Obara, played by Keisha Castle-Hughes and I think her whip is very representative of her character. It’s not about brute force with a whip... it’s about balance and timing, precision and accuracy — and all those things are very much Nymeria." Their personalities match the books pretty well, it seems. For example, when the Nym actress compares herself to Obara ("If Obara has an obstacle she goes right through it, whereas Nym will stop and look back and think, ‘What’s the way with which I have to expend the least amount of energy to get through this obstacle?’"), it reminds me a lot of their differing proposals in "The Captain of the Guards": Obara just wants to go to war, while Nym wants to be more surgical about it and will content herself with assassinating the Lannisters. I imagine we'll see some of that. Oh, and it's pretty cool that Henwick actually learnt to use the whip, right? "She is Indiana Jones", indeed. Anyway, I digress. Isn't it time to add this kind of thing to the wiki? Well, especially the new family tree. Considering 3 of the Sand Snakes will be characters this season, it's a bit weird to still have them all bunched together as "Sand Snakes"? —ArticXiongmao (talk) 11:02, March 31, 2015 (UTC) Trystane, "youngest" son I am aware that Tyrion, back in season 2, called Trystane the youngest son of Doran when he married Myrcella off to him. But this all can have easily been retconned the moment they decided to condense the Dornish storyline, possibly leaving Trystane as the only son of Doran. I know we can't know for certain yet and this will all probably be revealed in the next season, but can we not at least just call him "son", leaving out the "youngest" part for now? It isn't incorrect by doing that either. KarstenO (talk) 16:51, April 8, 2016 (UTC) I honestly don't know. Much like with Shireen, they're being intentionally vague to leave the door open to introduce other children later. Which is frustrating. This is one of the top things we'd ask about but I honestly don't know what to do, and I'd just leave it until we know more.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:23, April 8, 2016 (UTC) Officially an extinct house now? Since Doran and his only heir Trystane are now dead, doesn't that mean House Martell is officially extinct? Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are bastards after all. JaimeLannister93 (talk) 03:30, April 25, 2016 (UTC) : Agreed. Dead house. Dorne is being ruled by a coup d'etat. Simpsonsfan1992 (talk) 04:37, April 25, 2016 (UTC) :Not yet. We don't know if there are other Martells out there *cough* Arianne *cough* and even if there are no more legitimate Martells, as Oberyn's acknowledged daughters, Obara, Nym and Tyene have a claim to Sunspear.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:40, April 25, 2016 (UTC) : :: Arianne has yet to be confirmed and bastards aren't legitimate heirs. As of April 24, 2016, House Martell is a dead house until something changes. Simpsonsfan1992 (talk) 04:46, April 25, 2016 (UTC) ::It's funny; check some of the news sites. Apparently a major trending topic on Twitter right now is variations of "only the introduction of Arianne Martell at this point can even limit the damage of the Dorne subplot now".--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:47, April 25, 2016 (UTC) ::It would be really strange that he talks about Trystane in his dying breath, who he assumes is safe from the Sand Snakes, over an older child who would be his heir. If they were going to introduce older Martell kids, before Doran's death would be the time. KarstenO (talk) 12:22, April 25, 2016 (UTC) ::Doran mentioned in season 5 that Trystane must learn how to rule, basically stating that Arianne isn't going to be included since if she was she'd be Doran's heir since she is older and in Dorne there is no male preference in the line of succession. Faizan.mohamed (talk) 22:04, April 25, 2016 (UTC) Genuine question, is there any primary or even secondary sources that say that House Martell is extinct? Even if you take Arianne, and any book character for that matter, out of the equation, it seems really improbable that any house in Westeros has two members... a father and a son. The status is surely unknown until their is conformation that the house is extinct. 02:11, June 6, 2016 (UTC) I think it's important to mention that according to this wiki's own article on bastardy, bastards in Dorne DO have inheritance rights from their house, just being ranked behind trueborn siblings. With that being the case, Oberyn had no trueborn children, so theoretically this means that the Sand Snakes are the lawful heirs to House Martell. NotCrazyCarson (talk) 18:04, August 30, 2016 (UTC) Extinction/Status We see the banners of House Martell among the sails in Daenerys' fleet sailing to Westeros. So...... what's up with that? Has the sigil for House Martell now become the sigil for Dorne as a whole? Or perhaps Ellaria Sand has demanded to be legitimized as a Martell, or for her daughters to be at least? If the latter is the case, that may technically mean that House Martell isn't extinct, at least in the eyes of House Targaryen. Reddyredcp (talk) 10:57, June 27, 2016 (UTC) :Obara, as Oberyn's eldest child may now be the lady of House Martell, but Ellaria is a bastard of House Uller, she shares no blood with the Martells. - 11:02, June 27, 2016 (UTC) ::Yeah, I'm aware. I'm just pondering this as I am wondering why the Martell banner is being used by the Sand Snakes. I suppose it could be either Obara demanding to be legitimized or it has simply become affiliated with the Dornish country as a whole. Reddyredcp (talk) 11:10, June 27, 2016 (UTC) :Shouldn't we change the lord of the house to Ellaria Sand and/or the Sand Snakes as de facto rulers of the house? Martell banners were used and the Sand Snakes indeed have Martell blood, which does give them a claim that appears to be in effect. --Kai200995 (talk) 22:50, June 27, 2016 (UTC) :I think that if Daenery conquers the Seven Kingdoms she will legitimize Oberyn´s daughters as true Martells as a reward for their alliance with House Targaryen. This will make Obara the Princess of Dorne.Matheon Lannister (talk) 16:53, June 29, 2016 (UTC) ::Perhaps name Obara as the lord of the house as the eldest martell child and Ellaria as de facto ruler? - 17:02, June 29, 2016 (UTC) :::If I may voice my personal opinion here... Ugh, I hope not. Not that the show has ever been black-and-white, but we are getting into end-game phase, as D&D have said. Are we supposed to cheer for Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, who killed their own kin because they wouldn't go to war for them? Who poisoned a young and innocent girl because of her family name? Not to mention... you know, the actual scenes they were in, but even disregarding the terrible writing, I don't see how we are supposed to like these people - if that's what the writers are trying to get across, of course. Of course I understand the lust for revenge, and I certainly did pity Ellaria initially for watching her lover die in such a brutal way, but it was Oberyn himself who made Dorne seem like a much more... accepting country? One that "does not hurt little girls?" These people who want to avenge the late Oberyn won't even uphold his beliefs, and then go onto murder his family? What? I mean, as terrible as war is, I'm all for avenging Oberyn by taking out the Mountain. Whatever, I suppose there really isn't a point in trying to rationalize this plot. Reddyredcp (talk) 17:13, June 29, 2016 (UTC) ::::I fear we can forget the background of Dorne and House Martell now. The producers have decided to mess the whole dornish story up, because of timeproblems or something else. We can only wait what will happen now, in the next season, if this will be questioned again. But I really doubt it will, and that we see anything more of Dorne instead the Sands and maybe a few soldiers! --Exodianecross (talk) 01:51, July 6, 2016 (UTC) A thought occurs.... In the event that Ellaria and the three eldest Sand Snakes die in a future season, and we have no confirmation of that - I mean, that all of them might die - ...dear god, are the writers going to announce "well, the Martells are extinct now!"...ignoring the fact that Oberyn rather prominently stated in Season 4 that he has eight daughters? And that even Doran said that she is mother to four of his nieces? (three more besides Tyene?!) One day they'll answer for what they did to Dorne. One day.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:54, December 17, 2016 (UTC)